Welcome to Mighty Municipalities, the podcast about small municipalities and how they can
punch above their weight.

I'm your host, Karl McCollester and along with my co-host, Mark Partin and our guests, we
take you through the highs and lows of working in a small municipality.

Whether it's the hardship and frustration that is holding you back or the progress and
wins that are propelling you forward, we're here to share the lessons learned and give you

the strategies to help improve your community.

Mark, how are you doing today?

I'm doing great.

uh For those of you that may not know where we are, we're in South Carolina.

It is January 30th and we are preparing for our second winter storm in two weeks, which is
highly unusual for us.

Very much and much more likely for us in the middle section of the state to be getting
snow this time.

So, yeah, it's more exciting than last time.

Then probably either of us want frankly from an operation standpoint.

Exactly, yes.

So, Mark, we've got a few interesting things to talk about.

I think starting with, you want to talk about there's some things here uh that are
happening in South Carolina that apply to many, many states and many localities around

growth.

Yes, just this week, Tuesday, matter of fact, the Census Bureau released their latest
population growth information and South Carolina is ranked as the fastest growing state in

the nation at the present time.

while South Carolina has experienced a lot of growth in recent years to be the number one
state, it brings a lot of attention not only to the state itself, but it also brings up a

lot of questions about

You know, is all of this growth good?

How do you management?

What problems does it bring?

What benefits does it bring?

So that's a little bit what we wanted to talk about for this first segment this morning.

And, you know, we have seen a lot of growth in the last few years, particularly in the
upstate in the Greenville region.

And then on the coast, pretty much the whole coast from the North Carolina border all the
way down to the Georgia border.

So those areas have been experiencing growth, but now we're seeing it move inward and
really covering the whole state.

So a lot of smaller municipalities, you know, this is a new phenomenon for them and
they're having to learn how to manage it.

And instead of always being excited about, you know, new projects being announced, new
developments being announced, now they're starting to say, oh, let's talk about this a

little bit and make sure we're handling this correctly.

And that continues to be a challenge because you you do want to be able to provide those
public services, those public utilities and do it well and not get into a situation where

you don't have enough running water.

You can't process the sewer.

You can't pick up the trash.

You can't respond as public safety.

So those are challenges that are really starting to rise up and needing some serious study
as well as some good answers to be created.

Because the answers, in some cases, are still being looked for.

So that's really the challenge that is coming our way in South Carolina, as well as all
around the nation.

Absolutely.

One of the things I know, the governor as part of his state of the state addressed it.

And then there are a couple of things that are happening in the legislature, the state
legislature that are reacting to those ideas of growth.

The three things I saw, two I'll mention, and third I want to discuss with you, Mark, and
get your feedback on.

The first is that one, they do have now they're planning a growth commission to study
growth and how to handle that.

uh And then the second thing they're doing is they're discussing some of the residency
requirements around the homestead exemption.

So here in South Carolina, we have an exemption for uh folks over 65, or I think 61
currently, but they're talking about moving to 65, uh where it exempts uh a portion or all

of your property taxes.

And right now that has a one year residency requirement and they're talking about
increasing the age and increasing the number of years you have to be a resident for that

to take effect, which is in part reaction to all of the people moving in.

And the idea of the homestead exemption being that you had put in, you paid your dues to
the state over that your working period.

And now that you're retired, let us reduce your tax burden because you may not be able to
afford that as much, especially on a fixed income.

uh

But the discussion is of course, who's getting to benefit from that and who should.

So that's going to be interesting.

I think the one that really affects, well, the two that really affect our local folks and
they're tied together.

One is the least I saw in, I think it was either a news article or maybe it was in the
Dome to your Home podcast from the Municipal Association was there is some discussion

happening around what is a unique thing in South Carolina, I think, in that

SCDOT, the Department of Transportation here, owns what 95 % of the roads in South
Carolina.

And as a result, even though we're a small state, they own more road miles than most
departments of transportation at the state level.

And that's because they own practically every road in every municipality and are
responsible for that.

And that has driven some of the growth decisions that we've seen because a municipality
hasn't had to take into account what

the road costs of taking on a new subdivision that has acre lots and things like that,
because normally the state has uh taken care of that and that has not been a cost factor

that a municipality or a county has not had to take into account when they're determining
on whether they should accept a new subdivision or the size of the lots and things like

that.

So that may be an interesting session that's coming down.

the road, one that is has already in committee in the Senate and has a bill is there's
something called concurrency, Mark.

And I don't know if you've seen this or heard of this.

Barely, barely.

So I'll follow your lead on this.

uh

great.

Okay, so the idea, and this is something that's very common in, especially in the
Northeast, I think, and in other states, is the idea that before, when you're evaluating a

subdivision, whether it should come in, not just is it rezoned correctly, uh are the plans
meeting codes, but do you already have the capacity to handle this new subdivision?

within your school district, within your water plant, within your roads.

do you, you know, does your, you do you have, and of course we do traffic studies right
now, but the idea here being that not only do you have to, you know, not only may we be

considering that in passing, but as part of the plan review process for any subdivision, I
think they're talking about greater than five lots giving, spelling out in the state

legislature, because the way our home rule works,

which is how independent a municipality can be within the state.

Our home rule is most of it is the state can reserve anything they want, but then anything
they don't talk about belongs to the city.

This bill is specifically giving cities the ability to regulate and consider concurrency,
which is this idea of do all of the parties involved

who will be impacted by this new development, have the capacity to handle this new
development and have them sign off on it.

And so that's the idea.

And I think that's gonna be an interesting thing.

Again, I think I've seen this in other locations.

I think probably at this point probably, I'm sure Charleston area, places, municipalities
are already handling some of this because of the growth they've had over the last 10 to 20

years.

But it's something that is now being specifically

delegated to the cities or considering being delegated to the cities so that it's not, to
make it harder for the state to uh revoke it later if it's already specifically delegated

um in the planning code.

And so that's at the state house and again, a bill that's currently in committee.

Okay, yes, I am a little bit familiar with that, but had not uh really followed that
legislation along as this session started just a few weeks ago.

But that will be one that's interesting to track and see where they end up settling on
that issue and the authority and the responsibilities they end up giving to the local

governments.

Absolutely.

And I think that then ties into that roads discussion because the cities or municipalities
responsibility of what concurrency is becomes the cost calculation becomes much more

interesting.

There's much more of a burden on the city when we're having to consider roads.

I think, Mark, did you mention that DOT has already

halted accepting roads in new subdivisions and then that's been going to municipalities
already.

There are some municipalities that are uh taking or they have the choice of either taking
the roads on or they remain private.

So yes, that has already shifted.

Yeah, where the DOT is not accepting those new roads, so it's they either have to take it.

And I think that again, when you're looking at some of the national movements, like the
Strong Towns movement, where they're talking about the ability for a municipality to

financially, responsibly take on new development.

One of things that they, you know, one of their biggest factors is roads.

And that is one factor that we have not had to deal with as much in South Carolina, but
especially with DOT not taking on those roads as much, having to do that calculation as

part of, hey, if this subdivision is two acre lots and there's five miles of roads in this
subdivision.

And does the tax burden, the tax gain from those two acre lots provide enough revenue to
the city to be able to maintain that road?

Or does it need to be half acre lots or quarter acre lots for this to make sense?

Or a portion of them need to be?

And so I think it's going to make for a much more fiscally responsible decision making
process from that.

can certainly impact growth.

of course, we've talked about uh off this podcast how several places have started to and
have different points like Lexington County uh has rolled back and uh implemented uh

subdivision freezes and new development freezes while they're trying to grapple with uh
what they already have and how that's impacting them and what improvements they need to

make before they add more things that will take up capacity.

Exactly.

And, you know, this is probably a good part to put in here, a good place to put in here
that, you know, a lot of times we're trained and educated and even naturally think that we

should always be striving for growth, bigger, better, more.

And, you know, in business school, you always, the graph needs to go up and to the right
all the time.

And while growth is very important and very vital and we should be striving to grow and

growth just for the sake of growth is not always beneficial because you can end up growing
numerically but decreasing in your ability to deliver services and quality of life to

people.

And that's really the crux of the question we're having right now.

Can people have a quality of life?

Can the municipalities and counties provide those services that keep people healthy, safe?

and thriving and we need to be smart about how that takes place.

Absolutely, Great.

So yeah, I look forward to seeing where that goes.

But with that, let's pivot to now one that I think this is an economic development piece
that had a few articles recently.

It is where it is in the approval stage or it has been approved and they're in the process
of developing this.

m

I thought this was an interesting economic development story for a small municipality.

that is so Woodfin, North Carolina, which is on the French Broad River up in the upstate
of North Carolina is again, they're, right on the river.

And they're making use of that asset by installing what's called a whitewater wave and
their population of 8,000.

So they are not a large municipality by any means.

This is not.

uh a one-off recreational thing that they get.

That's a throwaway project.

This is a centerpiece of a larger project of redeveloping their riverfront, making it more
attractive and attempting to bring in uh more tourism.

And what I found was interesting was that a small committee was able to pull together, I
think, the term of stacking, right, stack various grants together.

in order to put something like this in place.

And it's interesting that it's not, it is an infrastructure project.

And it is something where they have to put in, you know, they're basically engineered
boulders to make this whitewater wave happen.

I hope, you know, looking at at least some of the quick research I've done on costs, it is
a relatively low cost way to, as far as maintenance goes, you know, you're talking about,

I think the estimates I was seeing were for the wave itself, not counting

things around it like parks and parking lot maintenance and things like that.

But the wave itself, uh engineered putting of boulders into the river so it makes a
continuous wave that people can surf over or kayak over and have this whitewater

experience is around 40,000 per year is one of the estimates I was looking at.

And so that's an interesting way to leverage.

Normally you have this ability to provide capital.

to get capital for a large project from a state grant or from a parks and recreation
grant, the tourism grant, things like that.

But then the challenge always for a small municipality, especially one of 8,000 is how do
you maintain that?

How does it not just get away and look awful in 10 years and be like, that was nice that
we got that.

And now there's no money to maintain it.

So this seems like a relatively

clever way, potentially probably I would think cheaper than the, you know, than a large
boat dock or something like that even as far as maintenance, if you're looking at all the

concrete and things that would go into that as a way to increase quality of life within
the municipality by having this feature provide a tourism opportunity of something that's

not common in the area.

And, and you really give them something to talk about and to really leverage that asset
that they have, you know, uh

One of the things I'm always thinking of when I'm visiting a small town is, what is the
asset that this municipality can really leverage to be their thing?

And I'm using air quotes here, but to have that unique piece that...

they alone have or that's a, maybe they alone have in the region that can draw enough
people into to increase economic activity, which is the most important part.

You don't have to be unique in the United States.

You just have to be unique in your region of your state.

Enough so that people want to come and discover other things that are there.

So I this was an interesting project that really provided a unique concept as far as how
to leverage a water asset.

Yes.

And when, when you first showed this to me a couple of weeks ago, you know, my first
reaction was surfing in the mountains.

You know, so it's, it really is a clever idea and whoever came up with it, you know,
congratulations, you did a fabulous creative job there.

The whitewater rafting part makes complete sense for that part of the state, but to also
market to the surfers is, is very unique and interesting.

might be a little cold.

for surfing, but um put on your wetsuit and go to it.

But yes, it's taking a natural resource that is already there that they enjoy on a daily
basis and using it in a creative way to bring people to the area.

So I think that's really a great job.

And to your point of relatively low ongoing maintenance fee, being able to maintain it at
a high quality of excellence is very important because

Too often projects get built and not maintained and that sort of violates an implied level
of trust with your citizens the next time you want to do something creative.

They may not support you.

Well, you didn't take care of the last one.

Why should we do this now?

So, you know, I think that's very important to consider not just the cost of construction,
but can we maintain it and operate it at a high level for a long time?

And you need to factor that in when you're making these decisions before construction
begins and the ribbons are cut.

But I really like this project and I've never been to Woodfin, but I'm going have to make
a trip to see that.

I won't get in the water or surf because I'd make a fool of myself, but just to see it.

Yes, that's right.

So the last thing we wanted to talk about today is something that, Mark, you wanted to
talk about, something that we've done within the city of Sumter, in redevelopment and how

to make creative use of old buildings.

Yes.

um the main building I wanted to talk about in Sumter and then one down in Manning, South
Carolina, which is just just south of us a few uh miles is in Sumter and old Western auto

department store set vacant for a long time and then became for lack of a better word, an
indoor flea market for a while.

And then it said empty.

then the um different

entities came together, partnered together, and I won't go into all those details, but
acquired the property, got grants.

Central Carolina was already uh well involved in a nursing program as well as other health
sciences programs, and they needed room to grow.

So through different partnerships of all these entities, the uh former Western Auto
building was developed into

what is now the Central Carolina Technical College Health Sciences Building and the
nursing program, the uh surgical assistant program.

They used to have a massage therapy program.

A lot of the health sciences programs are located in that building and it's on South Main
Street about two blocks from the center of downtown Sumter.

And it's really a beautiful campus.

It's a state of the art building.

There are hundreds of people going in and out of that building on a regular basis for
classes, for trainings, for meetings.

So it not only has it revived a building in a part of town that was sitting vacant for a
long time, but it's bringing more traffic to downtown and other restaurants are opening up

and shops.

this was opened up in 2010.

That campus was opened up in 2010.

And, you know, since then we've had, you know, a hotel be constructed downtown.

Several new restaurants have opened up.

Other buildings have been renovated, new construction in other areas.

are a couple housing projects being constructed as we speak.

So it really is a, as a historian or a historical buff, I should say, I like to see these
old buildings.

be saved and be useful and not just pictures to look at.

So I think this is an interesting and beneficial development for our town.

But we're not unique in this.

There are a lot of different locations that do these things.

And as I mentioned, Manning, just south of us, Manning, South Carolina, small town in
Clarendon County uh adjacent to Santee Cooper Lakes.

They have a downtown as well, and just like many downtowns across America, they're not
always thriving, but they had an old belt department store that had sat empty for a number

of years.

And they were able to uh partner with a company called Provalus, and I may have pronounced
that incorrectly, to build a technology innovation center in that department store.

So that brought uh IT services and training

to an old department store in downtown Manning that has brought again, new life to that
town.

It has enabled a building to be used that the building itself was in pretty good shape.

So it kept it from uh further deterioration, bring new jobs needed in an area, bringing a
new industry to a town that you don't often think of smaller towns as.

industrial uh infrastructure for IT.

But it is, you know, this isn't Silicon Valley.

This isn't New York.

This isn't Chicago or Atlanta.

This is Manning, South Carolina.

And they have a large IT presence in their downtown.

So I really liked this project for a number of reasons.

But the least being the building is saved.

Yeah.

Great.

And from Sumter's perspective, right next to that department store, there was also the old
post office.

And I believe that got reused as well in the same project.

That's right.

was originally, it was built as the post office and then a new post office was constructed
during a Lyndon Johnson's administration.

back in the sixties and that building became what was called the federal building, which
housed like the USDA and some other federal agencies.

And then it sat empty for a while.

But as you said, during that same time, that building, is on one corner of that block, uh
went over to Central Carolina Technical College and they placed at the time some of their

paralegal classes and law programs in that facility.

And it's still there, it's still operating, beautiful facility, uh classic federal
architecture.

So I enjoy walking by and seeing it and uh I can't help but.

you know, think in my mind back to the day when that was the post office and what the
comings and goings look like.

so, yeah, another great project in the same location that was able to be useful in
revitalizing small buildings and keeping them operating.

Absolutely.

it kept, one thing I've noticed is with that there, made some of the adjacent properties
more viable.

There's, you know, think uh Sumter has a really strong uh core presence, especially up
near the Sumter Opera House.

And that has really grown out and had some new restaurants around that.

And then there's that little weak spot between that and then that campus area.

But then that campus area now has a restaurant.

uh

And I think I'm sure part of the viability of that was the presence there of the campus
and the number of people that were there when they were running the numbers.

that's been able to stick around even though it's not, most of the time, you're ideally
wanting in small towns like this, right, you may have had historically four blocks or six

blocks of downtown core back from the 50s, but you've shrunk.

to maybe even zero blocks.

so you're, to focus on an intersection first.

Like I think Sumter really successfully did focusing on Main and Liberty as the first
revitalization hub.

And then it's spread out, it's spread out a couple blocks each way now, uh and really like
almost like three blocks north and then really for another block south.

so you're always trying to stack your wins and build that density more and more.

the entire spot where people are going

is as lively as possible.

But this has really helped revitalize that piece and hopefully can help grow the part in
the middle to fill in the rest of the buildings.

Exactly, and for those of you listening not familiar with something, Remain in Liberty is
the center of our central business district.

So that everything, hopefully we'll start from there and go out as Karl was saying, back
to fill in what used to be a full downtown.

Absolutely.

So that, of course, is an educational purpose.

When you talk about Manning, we're talking about a commercial purpose.

think a couple of other examples that I saw, first of all, is Fountain Inn, is, Manning's
got a population of 8K, think, 8,000.

Amir, you're right, 4,000.

So Manning's a population of 4,000.

find and that is just an interesting story in general about how they were able to find an
uh IT call center that is really doing that kind of work all across the southeast anyway

where they're finding small towns that have the educational capacity and the employment
capacity and in placing IT technology call centers in those places to take advantage of

the the underutilized labor force and I think that's

That's fascinating and either trying to see if you can grow that internally or finding
those kind of companies and trying to recruit out to them, especially if you have a latent

workforce that has some of the technology skills that they're looking for.

I think that's a fascinating way to reuse some of those spaces.

Yes.

And, you know, as we were preparing for the podcast, you know, I was looking on the
Provala site and they have 12 or yeah, 12, not 10 or 11 sites.

And I don't recognize any of the communities as being large communities.

And some of them I've never heard of, but they're all smaller communities.

And, you know, to go back to our conversation about growth that we started out with.

This is a good way for small communities not only to redevelop unused facilities, but as
younger people want to move either home or tired of living in bigger congested areas and

wanting to go to a smaller place, these are jobs that are more interesting to them.

And so that's a good way as well to recruit younger people back to your community.

is to have these types of IT jobs as opposed to some of the traditional jobs that people
are normally associating with smaller communities.

Absolutely.

So we talked about education and commercial.

There are a couple more I found, which I thought were interesting.

So Fountain Inn, they have a mill site, but theirs is, if you go look at it, it's a much
smaller mill site, which I thought was interesting.

And it plays more towards that same size of scale that we're talking about.

ah There's a lot of mill redevelopments that have happened over, know, especially in
larger municipalities.

But Fountain Inn is a very small mill site.

And it transformed that into a brewery and food hall and event space.

And so that was mostly tax credits uh as well.

uh But again, a different reuse where you're looking more at, uh you you're looking more
at uh commercial versus business office versus uh education.

And so that's a different thing to look at.

So both they, and then as well, Pittsboro North Carolina, which is population 4900, had a,
their old

not their 1890s post office, but actually like their Lyndon Johnson era post office, which
was not a big space.

uh But that became, uh that was readapted to a restaurant and has now become a cafe.

And that's again, a spot kind of like Sumter's, uh where it's a few blocks off of the
main, know, downtown core, uh but really has uplifted that section, you know, that block

of their community.

So I thought that one was interesting.

And then of course the classic one, especially when we're talking about mill redevelopment
is the idea of converting them to apartments.

So, you know, many larger communities, including Columbia have successfully done that.

I thought it was interesting that Bessemer City, North Carolina, their population of
5,500, they've done a conversion and have really leveraged a lot of uh affordable housing

grants and initiatives and worked with a developer who was experienced in that to bring
that in so that they could

not only bring in apartments, but bring in quality apartments that are in the affordable
matrix of the town itself.

So they could, you know, hopefully, of course, attract new residents, but also have good
housing stock for existing residents who may not have that option in the smaller

community.

Now, what was interesting about that, and I think it's one of the key things for if I'm
thinking of what I've heard many small communities talk about when they talk about their

historic properties, is a lot of times,

When the property closes, they think, that's too bad.

And they expect the developer um or the company that's closing to, take the lead on the
recovery of that site.

And most of them are happy to receive that windfall, but they're not actively looking for
it.

And so there are, you know, I think now I'm thinking of the towns that I've worked with,
there, are many examples of where the.

Yeah, there's a mill and many of these mills closed as late as the 90s or even the 2010s,
right?

And Bessemer is an example of that where they're staying closed till 2010, but because
they hopped on it before the building deteriorated too far, they were able to recover it.

And I think that's one of the key things for small communities to take away from this is
that if you have something that closed, whether it's something small like the post office

or something medium like a department store or furniture store, or something large like a
mill,

the faster you can insert yourself into the discussion and make it even like you said,
Mark, know, we're for a while that's center site was a flea market, right?

As long as it's being heated and the roof is being repaired, you're keeping it available
for opportunities.

But as soon as that really starts to deteriorate, then your construction costs are
escalating and makes it harder and harder for somebody to come in and do something with

that facility, whatever that facility is.

Yeah.

and then adjacent to that one final thought I had is so there is speaking of a mill
restoration.

So, but this is here in Columbia.

This was a private developer who did, who actually know very well, who did 701 Whaley.

So that was the community building for the mill in Cottontown.

And he even restored.

the old pool house and made it into event space and like put plexiglass over the old pool.

I there used be a tree growing in it and the roof was gone when he first got there and he
restored the entire thing.

It's a beautiful space.

But as part of that complex, there was a smaller space that was basically like an old
warehouse.

And that was one of the first places he restored.

And that, if you don't know, was the original place where the Soda City Market was.

So before it became something that the city was excited about, the person who started that
market,

started as a weekly Sunday market in that building.

And it was just 12 vendors.

uh And then people would come and do it and became so popular, it outgrew that space.

And that's when it grew to Main Street and now it's become such a big thing.

But it was because they took this, it wasn't even barely heated per se, because I did open
sides and stuff like that.

ah So it could be open during the, uh and use as an event space in nicer weather.

ah But even in the winter, they would do the market there every week.

And that was, again, a creative use of that space that kept the space active and again,
kept the roof repaired.

And was something that was a great opportunity in time.

So I certainly encourage any municipality if there is a large building that's closed,
unless you, you know, even if you think there may be somebody following in on that,

start talking immediately to the owner or the previous owner who sold it.

Maybe it's a tax credit thing, maybe you're leasing it from them for a dollar and you're
then doing the utilities just to keep the place heated and cooled so you can keep moisture

out and help the building last longer.

Yeah, exactly.

If you can absorb...

$10,000 a year in cost now, which sounds like a lot, but it's a lot less than the 500,000
to 1.5 million to restore it fully when the roof's caved in 10 years later.

So you can avoid a lot of that cost and give yourself many more options, a lot more
resiliency by getting with that owner as quickly as possible and saying, hey, if you get

something great.

But let's figure out what we want to do in the meantime to try to keep this space
activated to keep it so that it's in good shape.

And we want to help you do that.

And if that's us giving you a tax break so you leave the utilities on, right?

So we're not going to charge you property.

We'll give you a fee in lieu of taxes agreement until, you know, for a 12 month and then
we'll renew it 12 months or something like that.

So you in return, you agree that you're going to keep all

all utilities on and active and maintained or something like that, right?

There's a lot of creative things you can do, uh or you lease it from them from a dollar
and you maintain the utilities, right?

And they're just paying the taxes and they're doing things, but you're helping them keep
it in good shape.

ah It keeps the value up for them.

So there should be a way that you can come to an agreement like that.

And especially if it's a core piece of your downtown or of your community, uh in the case
of a mill.

I'm trying to keep that building usable.

So you're not having to go through demolition.

I think is a key thing and just hop on as early as you can.

And as a side note to this, when we're talking about these older buildings like the mills,
the post offices, the construction that was incredible.

And particularly when you look at the old textile mills, you know, in today's term,
terminology and construction, when you think of a factory of whatever type, it's largely

concrete, you know, and I'm not being critical, but that's just the design largely
concrete and spread out.

over a lot of acreage, but many of these old textile mills are built in smaller
footprints, but multiple stories.

So perfect for residential.

And they're also brick construction, in many cases, hardwood floors that are just
absolutely gorgeous and massive wood timbers.

So, you know, it's perfect for a modern looking residential

condo apartment type construction that people like nowadays.

So the buildings themselves are beautiful.

And in our modern mind, you would not think of them being as an industrial building, but
they were, know, so when you can save those type buildings, it just beautifies your

neighborhood.

Absolutely.

And it's a great asset.

if you are a municipality that owns the water and wastewater utility.

keeping that thing active, keeping that pump active.

ah You already have the capacity probably going into something that was a mill to easily
handle any residential needs that would go there without having to do any upgrades.

The only thing you may have to do is try to figure out metering down line or something
like that if you need to do some individual metering.

ah And so you've already invested significantly into that space.

You have significant infrastructure there.

So again, keeping that active and keeping that usable, even if you're not

necessarily gaining a lot of revenue from it as a result, uh still again helps you
maintain those pieces so you're not having to do major construction again.

So again, you're putting uh what sounds significant but is a relatively small amount of
maintenance compared to having to completely rehab that space.

uh Now, of course, if it's a brownfield and you can't get a grant for that and things like
that, and there's other things that can be factors in the way.

ah But again, that doesn't keep you from using it as a flea market or as a Sunday farmers
market that hopefully brings some people in around the county and things like that.

That's right.

Yes.

Right, Mark, really appreciate your time today.

think, you know, between, you know, talking through some of the things that are coming
down the line for our municipalities to consider for population and growth here in the

state, you know, talking about some interesting economic development activities where
people were able to leverage their natural assets.

And then, of course, finally talking about how some of the things to consider in
redeveloping old buildings and how to

take advantage or keep those spaces activated so that you can have more options and
leverage them in the future, even if you can't completely make them profitable today.

I think are three great things that people can kind of take away and think about as
they're going throughout their day until our next episodes.

That's right.

So thank you uh for this time today, Karl, and I look forward to recording many more
episodes in the future.

Likewise, Mark, and of course, everybody, please like and subscribe as one would love to
hear from you all as well.

I'm Karl at GovPossible or mpartin at sumtersc.gov and we'll talk to you later.

Bye.

Bye.