Karl McCollester (00:02.926)
Hello and welcome to Mighty Municipalities, the podcast about small municipalities and how they can punch above their weight. I'm your host, Karl McCollister, and along with my co-host, Mark Parton, and our guests, we take you through the highs and lows of working in a small municipality. Whether it's the hardships and frustrations that are holding you back or the progress and wins that are propelling you forward, we're here to share the lessons learned and give you the strategies to help improve your community. Mark, how are you doing this? Fine, back to Friday afternoon.

Mark Partin (00:31.544)
Yes, back to Friday afternoons again, doing well and looking forward to hopefully some rain this weekend, which is very timely considering what our topic is. Yes.

Karl McCollester (00:38.602)
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we are not doing that great right now, at least here in South Carolina.

Mark Partin (00:47.362)
That's right. Yes. So today, so today we do want to talk about drought and drought management, specifically what municipalities can do and what some have already taken action on. And just this week we had an announcement by the city of Camden in South Carolina that they have declared a stage one drought.

Karl McCollester (00:49.858)
So yeah, what is the state of that?

Mark Partin (01:13.02)
And that is for them, that's their entry level drought. And it's to my knowledge, that's the first municipality in our, certainly in our area, if not our state that has taken action because we have been several months with below average rainfall. So just this week, they declared a state stage one drought, which is largely just to get people's attention, but they do ask people to voluntarily start

serving water and you know don't water your lawns as often and wash your cars as often and things like that but they did officially do this declaration and if you're not aware of our geography in the state of South Carolina Camden is sort of in the central part of the state just east of Columbia the state capital in the let's say north central part of the state so it's

It's is significant declaration. think it certainly gets people's attention based on where it is location wise. So yeah, so Carl, since the city of Camden did make this declaration and you did have some recommendations, can you walk us through a little bit about what municipalities can do and maybe make some comparisons between our neighboring states?

Karl McCollester (02:20.078)
Absolutely.

Karl McCollester (02:38.702)
Sure, yeah. yeah, what was it? And, you know, when Mark and I were looking at this, the declaration by Camden, one of the things when we were doing this research is to see where are we in. So, statewide, actually, we have a moderate drought declaration by the state.

and they have their next meeting here coming up at 4 30 so that may change unfortunately for the worse here given how much rain we've had which is almost none here in the last couple of weeks. So yeah so and that kind of leads to and you know we'll talk about South Carolina more of course that's the one we're probably most familiar with but you know South Carolina is largely you know top down governed by the state and that's not quite the same quite true for all of our neighboring states here.

Mark Partin (03:04.429)
Yes.

Karl McCollester (03:29.752)
in the southeast. first of all starting with North Carolina they have the most municipalities themselves have the most autonomy both in how and when they declare droughts and and what measures they they take and then so they have a lot of leeway as far as when and how they

they declare those things for municipality to municipality. on the other hand, Georgia actually probably has maybe the most restrictive of the three states in that. First of all, they...

with their groundwater use act back from 1972, the municipalities have to actually obtain and draw a permit as far as how much exact water they can draw into their systems from the state. so that's more tightly regulated than I think here in South Carolina. so from the Georgia standpoint, the Emergency Protection Division really manages the drought as well as the

give mandates not just as far as what residents need to do and things like that, as well as even how much water they can draw out of the river basins and the aquifers and sources and municipalities of course required to comply. Now they can do stricter regulations so they could say you know hey the state has declared a moderate drought for you know the entire state or our region or our county but because of where we are with our

system, we want to have some additional restrictions. And so they can declare those, they're very much constrained by what they can do by the state. There's a limit on how loose they can be based on that. And South Carolina is really fairly similar. For us, we have adopted around the same era, Title 49,

Karl McCollester (05:33.025)
Section 23 and of course, we'll give the links which is the water resources and drainage and that was really partially the drought response act in response to drought conditions that have happened previously. And that mandated a few things. that one, every municipality had actually have a plan and ordinance that one conformed to the levels that the state was setting. you know, everybody needs to use the same terminology again just to make it simple.

So there's no, you know, a municipality can't have levels one through five, but the state has the what I think is a bit moderate, severe and extreme. You know, there's there's no.

confusion in how those things align. the municipality has to conform and use the same terminology and, you know, based on that terminology, then determine what they're going to do at those levels. And how those levels are set is a little interesting in South Carolina, in that there are subcommittees that are basically aligned with the river basins or they may have some overlapping sets of river basins so that, you know, the water source that

that's flowing through all those municipalities are governed by that same regional committee. Now they all, though, report to a state level committee who's, of course, then making the state decisions. So again, like, it's similar to Georgia in that there is a, in that case in Georgia, there's an administrative body that's handling the drought preparation. In this case, we have this, you know, this regional statewide committee that's working with Department of Natural Resources who's declaring the various levels

and then they're declaring what actions must be taken based on those levels that are done. Now, South Carolina has a little bit more flexibility though than Georgia in that one...

Karl McCollester (07:31.851)
As far as at the time that a declaration occurs, we have basically the same kind of power. We can't do less than what the state says, but we can do more than what the state says. But in addition to that, we do have the ability to submit a drought management plan with DNR, which gives you then more local options. So that way, if, for instance, right now, again, we're in a moderate drought, you may, you know, the state may be in a moderate drought, but your water system, for whatever reason, is having

more issues than what the state is thinking. So while the state may be just voluntarily encouraging things, you could actually have a within your plan you can say, when our water system has these behaviors, it's not flowing, you we don't have the levels in the tanks, we don't have levels on the reservoirs, whatever. Based on those things, then we can automatically declare a more severe drought, even though the state itself hasn't. So it does give the municipalities a little more flexibility, again, to move further forward if they need to.

to match what's happening in their water system. so, know, the municipalities here in South Carolina have two things, right Mark? They have the ordinance itself, and then they have the drought plan. And those drought management plans can be filed with DNR. think there's, you know, that law has been around long enough that there's more or less, from what I can see, how people are keeping up with those things. But again, the key thing is one,

Mark Partin (08:41.7)
Mm-hmm.

Karl McCollester (09:01.584)
the ordinance, which there is a template, there's a template for the plan as well up on the state site. But the ordinance that most municipalities have acted here in South Carolina have largely standardized the idea of that we were going to follow the state levels. When the state declares a certain level, we then have the option to declare a proclamation that, depending on what the state requires, that we could require more by declaring that proclamation. that way, again, a proclamation, of course, is not an ordinance.

it requires the single reading and so it's much easier to enact and repeal based on the situation on the ground. So that's kind of the differences there.

Mark Partin (09:32.291)
Thank

Mark Partin (09:43.446)
Yeah, I think it's interesting to point out some of our previous topics we discussed fall in the same realm, but local governments can only do what the state authorizes them to do. So even in the case of drought, you know, we have to rely on the authority given to us from the state.

Karl McCollester (09:57.325)
Okay.

Mark Partin (10:04.676)
Certainly anyone, any citizen can voluntarily and hopefully do conserve water at all times, but municipalities gain that authority from the state and that's a long-standing tradition as well as legal basis that's been determined really more than a hundred years ago. So, but even on actions such as this, you have to rely on what you're legally allowed to do.

Karl McCollester (10:12.568)
Mm-hmm.

Karl McCollester (10:33.461)
Absolutely.

Mark Partin (10:34.446)
Yeah, so which that kind of brings me to what I wanted to talk about next because water conservation and water usage really does come down to a legal issue in many cases. And, you know, we were talking about North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, as if they're all standalone entities. But the water flows across boundaries.

Karl McCollester (11:01.815)
Absolutely.

Mark Partin (11:02.016)
So therefore it brings interstate issues into play, not just on the usage of the water, but on the conservation of the water. And, you know, probably the one that most recently comes to mind, which has been several years ago now, but the Catawba River, which originates in North Carolina, flows into South Carolina and actually is the river basin that supplies Camden.

you know, there was an issue when there was a severe drought and the Catawba River was extremely dry. So North Carolina was drawing out more water because that's where the headwaters are downstream towards Camden and everything in between. They were struggling because water wasn't coming to them. So it really did become a federal,

Karl McCollester (11:41.816)
Mm.

Mark Partin (11:56.382)
legal issue about how do you work this out? You know, could Charlotte strangle Camden, so to speak, because Charlotte took water before Camden had the opportunity to. So those are things that we don't always think about when your local municipality says we need to conserve water, be for drought or whatever reason, but there are interstate influences and if you've never looked at these watershed maps, they're very interesting.

Karl McCollester (11:59.011)
Mm-hmm.

Karl McCollester (12:03.427)
Thank you.

Mark Partin (12:26.246)
interesting about how far out the veins, so to speak, reach and how many states they do cross. So it's very interesting to look at and realize, you know, we're all pretty interconnected. We're not just standalone in our municipalities or in our states. So it's worth looking at and trying to learn a little bit. Yes, Carl.

Karl McCollester (12:49.238)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think some of the, you when you think about the interstate piece, you know, we I think benefits a strong word, but the the Appalachian Mountains, of course, collect a lot of that rainwater that that we're the beneficiary of. And I can certainly empathize with the resident who looks out their window and sees a relatively full river flowing by their municipality and wondering why, you know, why they're having to

have drought, you know, management and saving regulations. And as you pointed out, some of that's, you know, not only for the neighbors downstream interstate wise, but even for the neighbors downstream within the state. Yes, there is still looks like plenty of flow there, but there are people downstream who are having to use that water as well, potentially. So I think that, you know, that's something that we all need to consider and think about, you know, even though you're you're you're where you're at on

Mark Partin (13:33.625)
Hmm.

Karl McCollester (13:49.065)
the river may look at least relatively fine. There are people further downstream who are having to make use of that as well and that affects all of us because you know just as floods affect all of us because it affects how well the wastewater system works, how well cooling systems work and plants including power plants down the line, all of those things need sufficient water to be able to maintain a clean function and they can be at risk when there's not enough water to do that.

Mark Partin (14:15.98)
Yes, it is like you said, it's more than just do we have drinking water, but can businesses operate that rely on water so it does take some intense monitoring and adjusting from time to time to to keep everything flowing. No pun intended as much as it's needed to.

Karl McCollester (14:37.646)
Absolutely. So what are some of the things, you know, from a Sumter perspective that you all think about when we're, you know, when these drought conditions are occurring?

Mark Partin (14:46.018)
Well, before I jump into specifically, which I will, this does tie into something more directly, but there are two types of water sources, surface and groundwater. And what we were talking about with particularly the Catawba River and the Catawba River Basin, that's surface water. So if you think of rivers and lakes, some water systems draw directly off of those sources so that you,

can more visibly see it when the water level drops. Lakes getting low. On a national level, we see Lake Mead and Lake Powell out in Nevada.

Karl McCollester (15:19.276)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (15:28.74)
Southwest visibly have dropped to extremely low levels. So it's easy to see there's a water problem there. And of course that feeds millions of people in the Southwest. But then Sumter, we're on a groundwater system. So we're drawing from deep water wells and much of that water, you mentioned Appalachian Mountains, much of the water in our aquifer, we're told by hydrologists, actually came from rain.

Karl McCollester (15:34.017)
Absolutely.

Karl McCollester (15:38.123)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (15:58.646)
rainfall in the mountains and it works its way underground to these deep water aquifers. So for Sumter it's a little different to declare a drought condition because our wells are so deep and we're not drawing off of the visible water that some of these other communities are. But we do have a drought management plan and just like you mentioned it's based on at what

Karl McCollester (16:13.056)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (16:25.344)
level of drought has been declared, whether it's moderate, severe, extreme, et cetera. And at each level, largely people are asked to do the same things. It's just whether it's voluntary or mandatory. So at the very least level, it's like, please conserve, don't overdo it.

Karl McCollester (16:30.222)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (16:47.3)
use water, don't irrigate during the heat of the day, irrigate off times and you know, those type things. And then as you tear up, then it can become, you can only irrigate Monday, Wednesday, Friday, if you live in this part of town and Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, if you live in this part of town and you know, don't wash cars, don't pressure wash. And then at...

Karl McCollester (16:52.941)
Mm-hmm.

Karl McCollester (17:09.646)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (17:13.3)
extreme level it is you know if your pool is evaporating water too bad you can't fill it back up and then and then it can go to the very very extreme of rationing where it says you know you can only use this much water if you're you know per person so we do have that tiered system and again there is an ordinance that was passed that allows the authority to make these decisions

Karl McCollester (17:18.764)
Right.

Mark Partin (17:41.892)
But thankfully, as I said, because we are a groundwater system, we haven't had to utilize that.

drought management plan. But we do, you know, try to be careful and conserve in our system as well as just encouraging water conservation in general. Which, you know, that's something I encourage all water systems, municipal or private, to do. You know, if you find leaks, fix them because that's just wasted water as well as wasted cost because you're treating that water and you're letting it, you know, run down the street or seep into the ground.

Karl McCollester (18:01.038)
Mm.

Karl McCollester (18:13.358)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (18:21.766)
So whether we're out under a drought condition or not, it's beneficial for utility systems to monitor those things and make sure that wastefulness is not occurring and when you do find an issue, fix it. And I would say we try to stay ahead of that. Of course, it's a large system that we have to work on, but they do a good job of monitoring and fixing leaks as soon as they find them.

Karl McCollester (18:22.52)
Mm-hmm.

Karl McCollester (18:37.751)
Yeah.

Karl McCollester (18:50.038)
Yeah, I think that is both an important point. Just if you're the more water you're leaking and not only are you treating your pumps are running longer and harder, all those kind of things to maintain pressure throughout the system. So it's costing you both in treatment costs as well as maintenance costs up the line from those leaks. Though, of course, the challenge for a lot of our smaller municipalities is even detection, trying to figure these things out. You know, if you I think

A lot of municipalities have moved to least touch read, if you don't have good feedback and don't have good data collection practices, it can be very difficult to figure out exactly how much is leaking and where.

Mark Partin (19:34.562)
Yes. And you as the homeowner, if you're not on a system that does have electronic monitoring, you as the homeowner look at your water bill every month. And you know, if your usage spikes, you might have a leak. So you need to take a look at it. Because I know at least at my household, our water is pretty consistent, you know, every month. So I know if something's thankfully I haven't had that issue and I hope I don't anytime soon.

Karl McCollester (19:51.118)
Absolutely.

Karl McCollester (19:55.694)
Mm.

Karl McCollester (20:03.246)
Right, absolutely. So, you know, of course, during a drought, that's, you know, those are the kind of the pieces we have to do. And then, of course, you know, as far as those restrictions that Mark talked about, the different stages that the state can declare as well as the restrictions they declare, and then the additional restrictions you can declare to keep your water system safe, whether that's a municipal in one or not, you you'll be working.

Mark Partin (20:04.472)
Yeah.

Karl McCollester (20:32.91)
closely because you want to make sure that the system has the available pressure for fire protection and other basic services that you're providing. So that's what happens when we get there. But of course, then there's what are some of the things we can do, Mark, when to be more resilient when these kind of things happen.

Mark Partin (20:52.61)
Yeah, so this comes from a consulting company called Capital Strategic Solutions and we'll put a link to this in the show notes. But they give several tips on things that we can do ahead of time, as Carl says, to reduce water usage and water waste as well as once something is declared, then...

some of these same actions can be implemented. one, and I think the soil and water conservation districts in South Carolina do a good job of this, but really educate people on water usage and water conservation and what can we do to keep our water sources clean, such as don't pollute, don't...

pour used motor oil on the ground because eventually it's going up in a well somewhere. But really emphasize education. Some other things to do is to incentivize ways that people can conserve water. And probably the...

Karl McCollester (21:59.513)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (22:04.248)
best example I can think of around this is actually not in water, but New York City a couple years ago implemented a sort of a tiered system on public transportation, know, during peak times, it costs you more versus off peak times. So those are some examples of ways that you can incentivize when water is used. You know, don't water your lawn.

Karl McCollester (22:17.569)
Mm-hmm.

Karl McCollester (22:22.915)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (22:31.836)
at 12 o'clock in the day during July and August because it's largely going to evaporate but instead maybe do it at night. Set it to come on at 3 a.m when it's you know a little bit cooler and will evaporate less. You can do tiered water pricing where you know the the first thousand gallons it may be cheaper than the

Karl McCollester (22:34.414)
Mmm.

Right. Right.

Karl McCollester (22:46.957)
Yes.

Mark Partin (22:54.66)
10,000 gallons because you're starting to use more water. And a lot of times it's reversed. The more you use...

Karl McCollester (22:55.502)
it.

Mark Partin (23:02.796)
you know, systems will often give you a discount, but instead maybe you reverse it so that it's cheaper to less you use. And then, you know, as far as like watering plants and so forth, again, soil water conservation districts, maybe your extension service from some of our universities such as Clemson, South Carolina State, they do good jobs of helping people create rain gardens and,

Karl McCollester (23:05.47)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (23:32.702)
rain barrels so that you collect and reuse water that falls naturally versus turning on a faucet. So there's all kind of things you can do like that. We've already talked about drought response plans, but even do that at your own home level. What can you do to conserve water at all times, but especially in times of drought? And you know, when...

hurricane season comes through South Carolina, they always tell us make sure you have a gallon of water per day, per person for drinking purposes. But if you've never thought about how much water you really use,

Karl McCollester (24:03.598)
Mm-hmm.

Mark Partin (24:10.914)
take a couple days and document it. And you know, it may be that you realize maybe I can turn the faucet off a little more than I do. So take the time to document how much water do I use and do I really need that and develop your own household plan on how you can better conserve water usage.

Karl McCollester (24:31.47)
Yep.

Especially during drought times when we're trying to make sure we have enough water in the systems to even work. other things that I thought that I was thinking about. One at the extension of Mark of what you were talking about as far as the rain barrels. I've seen the ability for systems they'll take your they'll separate out actually your drainage for your things like your tub and your washing machine from your from from the more impure things like your toilet.

Mark Partin (24:37.124)
That's right.

Mark Partin (25:01.08)
Yes.

Karl McCollester (25:01.84)
And that way you can, your sprinkler system, you can have a sprinkler system that's actually functioning off of the gray water. And so that way, know, can, frankly, you're saving money on your own, you know, water bill and reusing it that way. you know, basically using the water that is mostly clean and not drinkable, but certainly works just fine for plants. And so I've seen that, you know, in other more water conservative states, but something

Mark Partin (25:24.778)
Absolutely.

Karl McCollester (25:31.713)
we may be considering as time goes along that this kind of stuff keeps up. And then one other thing from a municipal standpoint I thought was very interesting, know, lot of our, you know, more desert countries are doing things like, you know, desalination and water recycling. But one article I saw earlier this year was where Liberty Hills taking that same kind of idea, Liberty Hill, Texas is taking that same kind of idea of piloting

refeeding their wastewater stream and going through additional purification steps so it actually exceeds, because that's what people get concerned about of course, drinking water standards so they can actually recycle it back into the system and save, know, not have to expel all of that. So I think that's a really interesting pilot that, you I think more and more of us will probably be considering from a municipal standpoint and looking for infrastructure funding for those kind of things.

Mark Partin (26:26.755)
Cheers.

Mark Partin (26:31.764)
Absolutely, yeah.

Karl McCollester (26:33.134)
Great.

Well, Mark, so I would say for everybody out there, know, I think it's obviously with what's been happening in the state and South Carolina, at least, and then where we're from and, you know, looking at the weather conditions and, you know, hoping for some darker clouds here in the next couple of weeks to help alleviate some of this. for all of us, as we're we hit those times of drought, you know, being prepared as a municipality, updating that plan, if you have an update.

that lately, making sure your ordinance, if you haven't touched that in a while, is up to date and has the policies and processes that you'd want to put in place. Make sure you have those things reviewed and queued up so that when we have something like this happen again, then eventually it will. You're in a better place to respond to it.

Mark Partin (27:25.282)
Yes, and if your municipality does not have an ordinance, Carl mentioned this earlier, but the Municipal Association of South Carolina does have a model ordinance on their website that you can access to help you model one for your community.

Karl McCollester (27:38.732)
Right. Yeah, as does the DNR site has some of the model plan piece as well. So we'll share all that, of course, stuff, of course, in the show notes. So with that, we have several grants. Mark, why don't you start off?

Mark Partin (27:51.333)
Yeah, the first grant we have is from the Stanley Smith Horticultural Trust. And this is a grant that is for ornamental horticulture, which I think is kind of interesting that they've really focused in on that one type of area of horticulture. And these grants vary from $5,000 to $25,000 each. And they, as I said, they're specifically for studying and developing

ornamental plants and they're really looking for things that are natural to the region that you're living in. And the reason this one interests me so much is just north of here in the city of Bishopville there was a gentleman by the name of Pearl Fryer who just recently passed away but he had a private garden that he did

Topiary's in, yeah. He did it himself and he was, my understanding is he was self-taught. I wouldn't say as were Edward Scissorhands, but not quite very strange. But just he had a beautiful garden next to his house and he ended up.

Karl McCollester (28:56.973)
Mm-hmm.

You're right.

Mark Partin (29:07.052)
pretty much taking care of his whole street. So, and it is still there. It's a horticulture, a topiary garden there in Bishopville. Just beautiful work that he did. I understand, I think Clemson University and maybe some University of South Carolina students are still working on that. know, gardening can be more than just the plants themselves and the beauty of the plant themselves. This grant is one way that

horticulturalists can experiment a little bit and learn new ways and new types of plants that can be beautiful in the way they're shaped, not just in the colors they provide and the smells they provide.

Karl McCollester (29:51.138)
Absolutely.

What I found great about this one was the, you know, it also includes maintenance of gardens accessible to public. So I think of, you know, all of the municipalities around here that have, of course, know, Sumter-Swanlake Iris Garden, the Orangeburg Rose Garden, you know, we have several arboretums, know, Aiken has a lovely garden, you know, there are so many municipalities that have a public garden space that they are maintaining. And so if there's something they can do to, you know, put towards, you know, planning of a new phase or replanting.

a section and getting some help with that. I thought, you know, what a great opportunity here. And that again is due June 15th. So you got some time on that. The next one up May 26th HUD has a housing counseling program grant. So this is a large grant and I'm sure you'd be in competition with some major cities for it. But what I found interesting in this is this is not for infrastructure. This is specifically around funding housing

counseling in your community. So I could definitely see being able to deploy this with you know some nonprofits in the area or maybe even teaming up with several other municipalities because the grant size is one to three million but you know having the ability to

bring on staff to really help folks if you're having, for folks with housing issues in your community, being able to work with them so that they can, so you can have a program so you can help your residents and have that initial pilot and seed to see if you can make something of it. I think it's a great opportunity.

Mark Partin (31:30.372)
Okay, and our next grant is from the Hart Family Fund for Small Towns. And this one has a fast approaching deadline of May 1st. So next week you would need to work on this. But it is a grant from $2,500 to $15,000. And it's around historic preservation. You do have to be a nonprofit or a nonprofit organization.

Karl McCollester (31:40.472)
Yes.

Mark Partin (31:59.577)
that

is focusing on these projects to preserve and it's not just the physical preservation of different facilities but it's largely around educating and identifying projects and educating the people on the importance of protecting these resources. So you can hire individuals such as architects or planners to help develop these programs and identify these properties as well as just

have

community meetings that can be funded through these grants to encourage the community to learn more about their historical facilities and the importance of taking care of them. So again, that is next week. So if you're interested in that or have a need for that and your community is 10,000 or less, I did need to throw that out there in population, then take a look at this and it is a competitive grant. So good luck with it.

Karl McCollester (33:02.4)
Right. Yeah, absolutely. So for all you smaller municipalities out there who are worried about having to compete with all these bigger towns in the area, this is one absolutely for you. And then finally, just a reminder, we've already spoken about this, I think, two weeks ago, but that federal historic preservation grant through the South Carolina Department of Archives and History is closing on May 7th. And again, that is somewhere between five and four

to help with, again, preservation, as well as education. It is a 50-50 grant, so you do have to do matching on that. But you've got a little bit of time left to get those things in and keep your programs moving forward.

Mark Partin (33:51.853)
Yes.

Mark Partin (33:56.108)
All right, so this has been a good topic and a very timely topic for us today. And, you know, as we're approaching summer and summer heat, I'm sure we'll be talking more about rainfall and lack of and need for more rain. So if if you need to refer back, please listen again to this episode as well as look at our notes in the show notes.

Karl McCollester (34:11.822)
Absolutely.

Karl McCollester (34:24.102)
Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully we don't have to refer to it. But yes, in case you do, they are here. And this is a really interesting topic because it's one that, you know, at least for me, I haven't been as familiar with. So getting to look through some of the state laws, understanding how all of this works, right? What we can do, what we can't do has been very educational for me. And I hope some of what we shared today has been useful for you as well.

Mark Partin (34:47.074)
Yeah, so thank you for listening and we look forward to another episode soon.

Karl McCollester (34:51.886)
Yes, thank you, Mark. And of course, all our listeners, please, of course, like and subscribe. And we look forward to talking with you in a couple of weeks. Thanks, Mark.

Mark Partin (35:00.345)
Thank you.